The Art of Design: Interviews to game designers #4 – Martin Wallace
By Andrea "Liga" Ligabue
設計的藝術: 遊戲設計師專訪四 - Martin Wallace
[As always, I've made a few edits to clean up the writing and make it a bit more readable. Hopefully I have not put any words into the mouths of Liga or Martin! Though, in this case, Martin's words are his own as he is a native English speaker…. Dale]
另一個編者說明他有編輯過文章，儘管 Martin Wallace是道地的英國人，但他還是希望沒有誤解雙方的談話。
Here I am again with 「The Art of Design」. Today, I'm managed to catch Martin Wallace, one of the most prolific game designers in the last years with a truly excellent portfolio – including award winners like Age of Industry and Age of Steam. Martin's games are well known not only for good mechanics but also for a strong connection with the theme. Martin says 「the challenge of designing a game is how to capture some of the feel of the theme」 and also 「I try to match the mechanisms with the theme「. I think this could really give us an idea of Martin's 「sign」. We can start the interview now…
這裡又是我與「設計的藝術」專欄，今天，我要設法來捕捉 Martin Wallace 的思考，他是近年來最多產的遊戲設計師之一，而且有相當優秀的履歷表 - 包括拿下大獎的 Age of Industry 工業時代 與 Age of Steam 蒸汽時代；Martin 的遊戲之所以有名，不只是因為有著良好的機制，更因為他的遊戲跟主題之間有很強的連結性。
Martin 說過「設計遊戲的挑戰在於掌握主題感」，另外是「我嘗試著去讓機制符合主題。」我想這可以給我們一些想法，去了解 Martin 的設計「符號」是什麼，現在我們可以開始訪問了 ....
[Liga] Dear Martin. I'm happy to have the possibility to interview you for the Opinionated Gamers blog. I have already interviewed you for ILSA Magazine, but now we are talking about art. I really think designing games is an art and so I think we need some resources (web-site, magazines, …) dedicated to 「opinion」 and 「criticism」 about games. Most of our readers will know you really well: your game production is impressive with more than 60 games from 1993 to today. You are close to your 20th year of design, and you are one of the most prolific designers that I know. I'm a Age of Steam fan and it was the game that made me know Martin Wallace — but I also like most of your games. In this huge amount of games Is there a game you are particularly proud of? Why?
問: 親愛的Martin，很高興有這個機會為 Opinionated Gamers blog 訪問你，我曾替 ILSA 訪問過你，但現在我們要聊的是藝術，我真的覺得設計遊戲是一門藝術，而且我認為我們需要一些資源(網站，雜誌等等)提供「意見」和遊戲「評論」，大多數的讀者很認識你了，你的遊戲產量令人印象深刻，從1993年到現在已有60款遊戲，你已經快要接近你設計生涯的第二十年了，而且你是我所知道最多產的設計師之一，我是 Age of Steam 蒸汽時代 的粉絲，是這款遊戲讓我知道你的名字，不過我同樣也喜歡你大部份的遊戲，在這麼多的遊戲裡面，你特別自豪的遊戲是哪一個? 為什麼?
[Martin] I'm lucky to have had a few designs published, although a lot of these I had to do myself. From my older games the one I'm most pleased with is Age of Steam, due mainly to the way it has allowed so many people to develop their own maps. A lot of folks never get the chance to design their own game, so being able to design a map, and have it published, is a good second best. Of my more recent designs I'm particularly pleased with Automobile. You never really know how a design is going to turn out, and what surprised me how the game play can vary even though you are using the same series of card spaces. What I also like is the close correlation between the decisions a player has to make and those that a real car manufacturer would have to take.
答: 早期的遊戲裡，我最喜歡 Age of Steam 蒸汽時代，主要是它讓許多人可以發展他們自己的地圖，有一群人沒機會設計他們自己的遊戲，所以能設計一個地圖，讓它被出版，算是一個次佳的結果。
在近期的遊戲裡面，我特別喜歡Automobile 汽車傳奇，你無從得知它的設計將如何成形，而且讓我驚訝的是遊戲過程會以任何方式變化，即使玩家使用同樣的牌路；我也喜歡遊戲裡，玩家須要作出的決定與實際汽車製造商會採取的決定，兩者間的高度關連性。
[Liga] That's true. I'm also very pleased with Automobile and with the IGA winners Brass/Age of Industry. Excluding few exceptions, like Runebound, you are used to design your games alone: really few titles are team-working? Why?
問: 的確是這樣，我也很喜歡 Automobile ，還有 IGA 大獎 Brass 與 Age of Industry。
除了一些例外，像是 Runebound，你總是一個人設計遊戲，很少有團隊合作的作品，為什麼?
[Martin] I don't think I'm cut out for co designing. Some games are designed in incremental steps, bits being added, others being taken away. Such a process could allow a couple of designers to co operate. However, very often I will redesign a game from scratch to solve a problem. This would annoy the hell out of any partner designer.
答: 我不認為我適合共同設計遊戲，一些遊戲是以漸漸增加內容的步驟下設計，加入一些，拿掉一些，像這樣的過程能讓一組設計師合作，然而，我經常為了解決一個問題，會從草稿開始重新設計一個遊戲，這會讓任何合作伙伴抓狂。
[Liga] I was lucky enough to work 「close」 to you for Moongha Invaders, the game you designed for PLAY: The Games Festival and I know you have 「deleted」 several designs before getting something you were happy about. In the special ILSA issue about you, I pointed out that most of your designs have strong mechanics but also a really strong connection with the theme. Do you think there is something common in your design? I think designing games is an art: what is Martin Wallace 「sign」?
問: 那我算是相當幸運，可以與你「靠近」地一起為 Moongha Invaders 工作，我知道，在有你滿意的結果之前，你已刪去好幾個設計。
在這個有關你的特別問題之中，我有指出你大多數的設計都有著很強的機制，但也與主題有很強的連結性，你想在你的設計裡面存在著共同性嗎? 我認為設計遊戲是一門藝術，而什麼樣的特色會是 Martin Wallce 的設計「符號」?
[Martin] As much as possible I try to match the mechanisms with the theme. I really don't like pasted on themes. Even those games of mine that might seem a little abstract always started with a theme in mind. The challenge of designing a game is how to capture some of the feel of the theme. An example would be the Moongha game that I designed for the Modena show. I really struggled with the brief and it took longer to design than I would have liked. What I knew I wanted was something that felt like a B move, where there's a monster out there but you don't know about it yet. Only towards the end of the film does the monster appear and the shooting start. In Moongha monsters remain hidden while they build up their strength. It's up to the hero to discover the monster before it is too strong.
答: 我盡可能試著去讓遊戲機制與主題相符合，我實在不喜歡貼上主題，即使是我有些稍微抽象的作品，在開始設計它們時我心裡是有主題的。
設計一個遊戲的挑戰是如何去捕捉主題的感覺，我為 Modena show 摩德納展設計的 Moongha 大戰外星人 可以算是一個例子，任務簡報讓我當時很掙扎，花了比往常更久的時間才設計出我會喜歡的結果，我知道我想要感覺像一齣B級恐怖片 - 你並不知道有怪物在哪裡，只有接近片尾時怪物才現身，雙方開始交火。
在 Moongha 裡，當怪物逐漸增加力量時是保持藏匿的，取決於英雄在怪物還沒有變得太強前發現它。
[Liga] So 「match the mechanisms with the theme」 is really something common to all your designs and 「The challenge of designing a game is how to capture some of the feel of the theme」 is something close to what we can identify as Martin's sign. Of course since the theme is the starting point your games are different. While researching your games, I also found that most of your designs have in common: an unstructured game turn … is that true ?
問: 所以在你所有的設計裡，「機制符合主題」算是一個共同點，另外一點是「設計遊戲的挑戰在於捕捉主題感」很接近某個我們可以用來辨識是 Martin Wallace 的設計符號。
當然，既然主題是設計起點，遊戲也會全然不同；在研究你的遊戲時，我發覺你大多數的設計的共同點是 : 無架構性的玩家行動回合，這點是否為真?
(* unstructured game turn: 我不知道是什麼意思，但我猜是像是每一個玩家行動內會有很多步驟，玩家需要透過逐一進行、驗證後，才輪到下一個人；而 Martin Wallace的遊戲很多是擇一行動執行，沒有結構性的行動與測驗。
* turn 的定義 : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_mechanics#Turns )
[Martin] If by unstructured game turn, you mean one where players simply take it in turns to perform an action (or usually two actions) then that is something I like to employ in a design. A simple game structure is easier to learn. However, it does not work for all games, such as Automobile or God's Playground. It all depends what works best for the theme.
答: 假如無架構性的玩家行動回合，你是指玩家僅是輪流去執行一個動作( 或通常是兩個行動)，那就是我想要用在設計裡的，一個簡單的遊戲架構比較容易學習，然而，這並不適用於所有遊戲，例如 Automobile 汽車傳奇 或是 God's Playground 波蘭戰爭，情形取決於什麼方式對主題運作起來最好。
[Liga] I think sometimes a young designer will try to follow your steps, since you really have a solid track record in the game industry. All the great artists have a Master: who is your master? The person that taught you most about designing games?
問: 我想有時候一個年輕的設計師會試著去跟隨你的腳步，因為在遊戲產業裡，你有很可敬的紀錄，所有偉大的藝術家都有一個啟蒙大師: 誰是你的啟蒙大師 ? 一個教你最多關於設計遊戲的人。
[Martin] I admire the games of Francis Tresham. It's difficult to criticise somebody who has created two separate genres of games, with Civilisation and 1825. What is interesting about his designs is that all of the chaos and complexity emerges from player interaction rather than the use of dice and cards. His Dutch Revolution is a wonderful example of this, with carefully controlled inputs and outputs to create a push-pull effect on players.
答: 我欣賞 Francis Tresham 的遊戲，很難去批評一個創造出兩種不同遊戲流派的人，如 Civilisation 文明帝國 與 1825 ，他的設計有趣之處在於所有的混亂與複雜性全來自於玩家互動，而非骰子跟卡牌的使用，他的 Dutch Revolution 荷蘭革命 是一個很好的例子可以說明這點，伴隨著精心控制的輸入與輸出，創造出影響玩家的推拉效果。
(* Push-Pull Strategy )
[Liga] It is really enlightening that you cited an 「American」 designer. Your games are something between the typical German 「obsessive」 research of the 「right」 mechanic and the American games. Is there a game designed by others you really liked to have designed yourself ?
問: 你引用了一個「美國」設計師，這點相當有啟發性。
你的遊戲有點介於典型德國遊戲 (著迷於正確機制的研究)與美國遊戲之間；有哪個遊戲，你很希望是你自己設計出來的?
[Martin] I would loved to have designed Puerto Rico. It packs a lot of well focused decision making into a relatively short period of playing time.
答: 我會想設計出 Puerto Rico 波多黎各，它把很多目標明確的決策放進一個相對簡短的遊戲時間。
[Liga] Yes, I agreee. Cristian T. Pedersen also cited Puerto Rico in his posscript to his Twilight Imperium rules. To conlude this interview, If you have to describe Martin Wallace with 3 Martin Wallace games, which games and why?
問: 沒錯，我同意，Cristian T. Pedersen 同樣也在遊戲 Twilight Imperium 帝國曙光 規則書的附言裡，引用了 Puerto Rico 波多黎各。
為這次訪談總結，如果你必須用三個 Martin Wallace 的遊戲去描述你自己，會是哪些遊戲，以及理由?
[Martin] Choosing three games to describe myself with is a difficult one. Liberte is an example of taking a complex historical situation and boiling it down to a relatively small set of rules. Steam is an example of wanting to improve on an already good design. My next game, Ankh-Morpork is an indicator of the future. Up to now I have used historical themes for my designs. What I would like to do in the future is branch out into literary themes, as long as they are rich enough in detail.
答: 選三個遊戲來描述我自己是一個很難的事；Liberte 自由 採取複雜的歷史事件，將之濃縮至一個相對小的規則裡面；Steam 蒸汽 想要進一步改良已經不錯的設計；最後一個遊戲是 Ankh-Morpork 碟型世界，則是未來設計方向的指標，直到目前為止，我總是使用歷史主題給我的設計，未來我想做的是擴展至文學主題，只要它們在細節上夠豐富。
[Liga] I was luck enough to play Ankh-Morpork at PLAY: The Games Festival and, if this is the future, I think it will be shining since literary themes are an huge jar to draw from.. Thank you
我很幸運能在 PLAY展玩到 Ankh-Morpork 碟型世界 ，如果未來如你所說，我想那將會很精彩，因為文學主題是一個大寶箱，有很多內容可以從中提取.....謝謝你。
另一個編者說明他有編輯過文章，儘管 Martin Wallace是道地的英國人，但他還是希望沒有誤解雙方的談話。
Here I am again with 「The Art of Design」. Today, I'm managed to catch Martin Wallace, one of the most prolific game designers in the last years with a truly excellent portfolio – including award winners like Age of Industry and Age of Steam. Martin's games are well known not only for good mechanics but also for a strong connection with the theme. Martin says 「the challenge of designing a game is how to capture some of the feel of the theme」 and also 「I try to match the mechanisms with the theme「. I think this could really give us an idea of Martin's 「sign」. We can start the interview now…
這裡又是我與「設計的藝術」專欄，今天，我要設法來捕捉 Martin Wallace 的思考，他是近年來最多產的遊戲設計師之一，而且有相當優秀的履歷表 - 包括拿下大獎的 Age of Industry 工業時代 與 Age of Steam 蒸汽時代；Martin 的遊戲之所以有名，不只是因為有著良好的機制，更因為他的遊戲跟主題之間有很強的連結性。
Martin 說過「設計遊戲的挑戰在於掌握主題感」，另外是「我嘗試著去讓機制符合主題。」我想這可以給我們一些想法，去了解 Martin 的設計「符號」是什麼，現在我們可以開始訪問了 ....
[Liga] Dear Martin. I'm happy to have the possibility to interview you for the Opinionated Gamers blog. I have already interviewed you for ILSA Magazine, but now we are talking about art. I really think designing games is an art and so I think we need some resources (web-site, magazines, …) dedicated to 「opinion」 and 「criticism」 about games. Most of our readers will know you really well: your game production is impressive with more than 60 games from 1993 to today. You are close to your 20th year of design, and you are one of the most prolific designers that I know. I'm a Age of Steam fan and it was the game that made me know Martin Wallace — but I also like most of your games. In this huge amount of games Is there a game you are particularly proud of? Why?
問: 親愛的Martin，很高興有這個機會為 Opinionated Gamers blog 訪問你，我曾替 ILSA 訪問過你，但現在我們要聊的是藝術，我真的覺得設計遊戲是一門藝術，而且我認為我們需要一些資源(網站，雜誌等等)提供「意見」和遊戲「評論」，大多數的讀者很認識你了，你的遊戲產量令人印象深刻，從1993年到現在已有60款遊戲，你已經快要接近你設計生涯的第二十年了，而且你是我所知道最多產的設計師之一，我是 Age of Steam 蒸汽時代 的粉絲，是這款遊戲讓我知道你的名字，不過我同樣也喜歡你大部份的遊戲，在這麼多的遊戲裡面，你特別自豪的遊戲是哪一個? 為什麼?
[Martin] I'm lucky to have had a few designs published, although a lot of these I had to do myself. From my older games the one I'm most pleased with is Age of Steam, due mainly to the way it has allowed so many people to develop their own maps. A lot of folks never get the chance to design their own game, so being able to design a map, and have it published, is a good second best. Of my more recent designs I'm particularly pleased with Automobile. You never really know how a design is going to turn out, and what surprised me how the game play can vary even though you are using the same series of card spaces. What I also like is the close correlation between the decisions a player has to make and those that a real car manufacturer would have to take.
答: 早期的遊戲裡，我最喜歡 Age of Steam 蒸汽時代，主要是它讓許多人可以發展他們自己的地圖，有一群人沒機會設計他們自己的遊戲，所以能設計一個地圖，讓它被出版，算是一個次佳的結果。
在近期的遊戲裡面，我特別喜歡Automobile 汽車傳奇，你無從得知它的設計將如何成形，而且讓我驚訝的是遊戲過程會以任何方式變化，即使玩家使用同樣的牌路；我也喜歡遊戲裡，玩家須要作出的決定與實際汽車製造商會採取的決定，兩者間的高度關連性。
[Liga] That's true. I'm also very pleased with Automobile and with the IGA winners Brass/Age of Industry. Excluding few exceptions, like Runebound, you are used to design your games alone: really few titles are team-working? Why?
問: 的確是這樣，我也很喜歡 Automobile ，還有 IGA 大獎 Brass 與 Age of Industry。
除了一些例外，像是 Runebound，你總是一個人設計遊戲，很少有團隊合作的作品，為什麼?
[Martin] I don't think I'm cut out for co designing. Some games are designed in incremental steps, bits being added, others being taken away. Such a process could allow a couple of designers to co operate. However, very often I will redesign a game from scratch to solve a problem. This would annoy the hell out of any partner designer.
答: 我不認為我適合共同設計遊戲，一些遊戲是以漸漸增加內容的步驟下設計，加入一些，拿掉一些，像這樣的過程能讓一組設計師合作，然而，我經常為了解決一個問題，會從草稿開始重新設計一個遊戲，這會讓任何合作伙伴抓狂。
[Liga] I was lucky enough to work 「close」 to you for Moongha Invaders, the game you designed for PLAY: The Games Festival and I know you have 「deleted」 several designs before getting something you were happy about. In the special ILSA issue about you, I pointed out that most of your designs have strong mechanics but also a really strong connection with the theme. Do you think there is something common in your design? I think designing games is an art: what is Martin Wallace 「sign」?
問: 那我算是相當幸運，可以與你「靠近」地一起為 Moongha Invaders 工作，我知道，在有你滿意的結果之前，你已刪去好幾個設計。
在這個有關你的特別問題之中，我有指出你大多數的設計都有著很強的機制，但也與主題有很強的連結性，你想在你的設計裡面存在著共同性嗎? 我認為設計遊戲是一門藝術，而什麼樣的特色會是 Martin Wallce 的設計「符號」?
[Martin] As much as possible I try to match the mechanisms with the theme. I really don't like pasted on themes. Even those games of mine that might seem a little abstract always started with a theme in mind. The challenge of designing a game is how to capture some of the feel of the theme. An example would be the Moongha game that I designed for the Modena show. I really struggled with the brief and it took longer to design than I would have liked. What I knew I wanted was something that felt like a B move, where there's a monster out there but you don't know about it yet. Only towards the end of the film does the monster appear and the shooting start. In Moongha monsters remain hidden while they build up their strength. It's up to the hero to discover the monster before it is too strong.
答: 我盡可能試著去讓遊戲機制與主題相符合，我實在不喜歡貼上主題，即使是我有些稍微抽象的作品，在開始設計它們時我心裡是有主題的。
設計一個遊戲的挑戰是如何去捕捉主題的感覺，我為 Modena show 摩德納展設計的 Moongha 大戰外星人 可以算是一個例子，任務簡報讓我當時很掙扎，花了比往常更久的時間才設計出我會喜歡的結果，我知道我想要感覺像一齣B級恐怖片 - 你並不知道有怪物在哪裡，只有接近片尾時怪物才現身，雙方開始交火。
在 Moongha 裡，當怪物逐漸增加力量時是保持藏匿的，取決於英雄在怪物還沒有變得太強前發現它。
[Liga] So 「match the mechanisms with the theme」 is really something common to all your designs and 「The challenge of designing a game is how to capture some of the feel of the theme」 is something close to what we can identify as Martin's sign. Of course since the theme is the starting point your games are different. While researching your games, I also found that most of your designs have in common: an unstructured game turn … is that true ?
問: 所以在你所有的設計裡，「機制符合主題」算是一個共同點，另外一點是「設計遊戲的挑戰在於捕捉主題感」很接近某個我們可以用來辨識是 Martin Wallace 的設計符號。
當然，既然主題是設計起點，遊戲也會全然不同；在研究你的遊戲時，我發覺你大多數的設計的共同點是 : 無架構性的玩家行動回合，這點是否為真?
(* unstructured game turn: 我不知道是什麼意思，但我猜是像是每一個玩家行動內會有很多步驟，玩家需要透過逐一進行、驗證後，才輪到下一個人；而 Martin Wallace的遊戲很多是擇一行動執行，沒有結構性的行動與測驗。
* turn 的定義 : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_mechanics#Turns )
[Martin] If by unstructured game turn, you mean one where players simply take it in turns to perform an action (or usually two actions) then that is something I like to employ in a design. A simple game structure is easier to learn. However, it does not work for all games, such as Automobile or God's Playground. It all depends what works best for the theme.
答: 假如無架構性的玩家行動回合，你是指玩家僅是輪流去執行一個動作( 或通常是兩個行動)，那就是我想要用在設計裡的，一個簡單的遊戲架構比較容易學習，然而，這並不適用於所有遊戲，例如 Automobile 汽車傳奇 或是 God's Playground 波蘭戰爭，情形取決於什麼方式對主題運作起來最好。
[Liga] I think sometimes a young designer will try to follow your steps, since you really have a solid track record in the game industry. All the great artists have a Master: who is your master? The person that taught you most about designing games?
問: 我想有時候一個年輕的設計師會試著去跟隨你的腳步，因為在遊戲產業裡，你有很可敬的紀錄，所有偉大的藝術家都有一個啟蒙大師: 誰是你的啟蒙大師 ? 一個教你最多關於設計遊戲的人。
[Martin] I admire the games of Francis Tresham. It's difficult to criticise somebody who has created two separate genres of games, with Civilisation and 1825. What is interesting about his designs is that all of the chaos and complexity emerges from player interaction rather than the use of dice and cards. His Dutch Revolution is a wonderful example of this, with carefully controlled inputs and outputs to create a push-pull effect on players.
答: 我欣賞 Francis Tresham 的遊戲，很難去批評一個創造出兩種不同遊戲流派的人，如 Civilisation 文明帝國 與 1825 ，他的設計有趣之處在於所有的混亂與複雜性全來自於玩家互動，而非骰子跟卡牌的使用，他的 Dutch Revolution 荷蘭革命 是一個很好的例子可以說明這點，伴隨著精心控制的輸入與輸出，創造出影響玩家的推拉效果。
(* Push-Pull Strategy )
[Liga] It is really enlightening that you cited an 「American」 designer. Your games are something between the typical German 「obsessive」 research of the 「right」 mechanic and the American games. Is there a game designed by others you really liked to have designed yourself ?
問: 你引用了一個「美國」設計師，這點相當有啟發性。
你的遊戲有點介於典型德國遊戲 (著迷於正確機制的研究)與美國遊戲之間；有哪個遊戲，你很希望是你自己設計出來的?
[Martin] I would loved to have designed Puerto Rico. It packs a lot of well focused decision making into a relatively short period of playing time.
答: 我會想設計出 Puerto Rico 波多黎各，它把很多目標明確的決策放進一個相對簡短的遊戲時間。
[Liga] Yes, I agreee. Cristian T. Pedersen also cited Puerto Rico in his posscript to his Twilight Imperium rules. To conlude this interview, If you have to describe Martin Wallace with 3 Martin Wallace games, which games and why?
問: 沒錯，我同意，Cristian T. Pedersen 同樣也在遊戲 Twilight Imperium 帝國曙光 規則書的附言裡，引用了 Puerto Rico 波多黎各。
為這次訪談總結，如果你必須用三個 Martin Wallace 的遊戲去描述你自己，會是哪些遊戲，以及理由?
[Martin] Choosing three games to describe myself with is a difficult one. Liberte is an example of taking a complex historical situation and boiling it down to a relatively small set of rules. Steam is an example of wanting to improve on an already good design. My next game, Ankh-Morpork is an indicator of the future. Up to now I have used historical themes for my designs. What I would like to do in the future is branch out into literary themes, as long as they are rich enough in detail.
答: 選三個遊戲來描述我自己是一個很難的事；Liberte 自由 採取複雜的歷史事件，將之濃縮至一個相對小的規則裡面；Steam 蒸汽 想要進一步改良已經不錯的設計；最後一個遊戲是 Ankh-Morpork 碟型世界，則是未來設計方向的指標，直到目前為止，我總是使用歷史主題給我的設計，未來我想做的是擴展至文學主題，只要它們在細節上夠豐富。
[Liga] I was luck enough to play Ankh-Morpork at PLAY: The Games Festival and, if this is the future, I think it will be shining since literary themes are an huge jar to draw from.. Thank you
我很幸運能在 PLAY展玩到 Ankh-Morpork 碟型世界 ，如果未來如你所說，我想那將會很精彩，因為文學主題是一個大寶箱，有很多內容可以從中提取.....謝謝你。
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